What Happens When Your Business Fails - And How to Start Over at 40 With a Social Media Agency

What really happens when your business fails? And how do you start again at the age of 40?

In this episode of The Remote CEO Life Podcast, I’m chatting to social media agency owner and podcast host Jen Kinal.

After running a successful event planning business for over a decade, Jen lost everything during the pandemic and was forced to start over - at 40.

She shares the raw truth behind burnout, rebuilding her confidence, and starting a brand new business that finally gave her the freedom she wanted.

You’ll hear:

- What it really feels like when your business fails
- How Jen went from events to launching her own social media agency
- The steps she took to recover from burnout and rebuild her confidence
- Why undercharging can keep you stuck (and how to fix it)
- The systems and mindset shifts she put in place to avoid burnout for good
- How to create recurring revenue in a service-based business
- What freedom looks like when you design your business your way

If you're starting over, feeling stuck in your current business, or ready to build a more sustainable path to freedom - this one’s for you.

Listen now to hear how Jen made her pivot work.

Connect with Jen:

Website: jenkinal.com

Instagram

#startasocialmediaagency #socialmediaagency #burnoutrecovery #startingover #femaleentrepreneur #freedomlifestyle #remotebusiness #businesspivot

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro: The Fear of Pivoting
• 1:59 Meet Jen Kinnell
• 2:57 The Many Pivots in Jen’s Career
• 3:57 COVID Shutdown: Losing Her Business Overnight
• 6:04 Rediscovering Her Skills Through Coaching
• 8:14 Undercharging & Burnout
• 10:29 Reclaiming Confidence & Raising Prices
• 12:26 Choosing Between Events and the Agency
• 14:39 Designing a Business Around Freedom
• 16:42 Burnout and Letting Go of “The Bold Founders”
• 20:58 Recovery, Boundaries & Self-Preservation
• 23:41 Systems That Support Sustainability
• 26:47 Shifting the Perfectionist Mindset
• 29:24 Recognizing Burnout Before It Hits
• 30:41 Trusting That It Will All Work Out
• 35:06 Creating a Business That Truly Gives You Freedom
• 40:29 Advice for Anyone Facing a Pivot
• 44:07 Where to Find Jen

Transcript

Sophie (00:01)
One of a human's biggest fears is change. And when it comes to pivoting in your business, that requires quite a lot of change, which can be really intimidating, really scary, particularly if it's out of your control. And today's guest on the Remote CEO Life podcast knows all about that because she had to pivot her events management business back in lockdown when the world shut down. And she pivoted towards social media management and has been able to create herself a life of freedom with her social media agency business. So today I'm joined by the lovely Jen Kinnell.

who is a social media manager, podcast host, and she hosts the Bold Entrepreneur podcast. Now she is on a mission to help entrepreneurs create profitable brands with confidence by building smart systems that support freedom, profit, and growth in their business. So in this conversation, Jen and I really delved into what it really looks like to have to shift directions in your business, whether that is intentional or actually happening to you because of circumstances. So if you are in a stage of life where you want to...

pivot into a different direction, whether you're in a nine to five and you wanna start an online business or you've got an online business that you don't enjoy anymore or it's not working for you anymore, and you wanna pivot into a new direction, this episode is gonna give all of the best advice, best of tips, and be your inspiration to teach you how to go for it. So let's drive into it, the episode.

Sophie (01:15)
Hey, Jen welcome to the Remote CEO Life podcast. How you doing?

Jen Kinal (01:18)
I'm doing amazing.

Sophie (01:19)
Obviously, I've been on your podcast at some point. So I am really excited to reverse that conversation and put the spotlight on you. Would you like to introduce yourself a little bit and tell us a about your journey and how you got to where you are today?

Jen Kinal (01:31)
gosh, it's a long journey with lots of pivots and lots of challenges. But my name is Jen. I own a social media marketing agency. I specialize in working with developers on their social media marketing campaigns and creating branding and awareness for them on social. So that's kind of what I do now. However, together it was a long journey. Like I've done event planning, I've worked in construction. I have like...

I've done so many things and had so many pivots to get me to where I'm at, which are amazing, but also like such a struggle to get through.

Sophie (02:03)
Wow, okay, and talk

us through like...

some of the pivots that you made because there's a trend right now and it's really frustrated me on social media, I don't know if you've seen it, but it's like, oh I started again at 30 and I'm like, I have been starting again my whole life. Constantly, constantly. Does that mean like 30s to you all to start again? Obviously it's not. So I love to have those conversations and spread the word that like it is so normal to pivot our lives, pivot our careers, pivot our everything because change is ultimately the only constant in life. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about some of those pivots and kind of why you made them.

Jen Kinal (02:13)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Okay, so I like basically had to start again at 40. So because I'm in my 40s now. But what happened was I owned a event planning business since 2006. So I was doing weddings, corporate events. I loved creating like the design and decor. So that was really my jam was anytime you have like a theme or just like something really beautiful for your wedding. I was like all in like I've done James Bond weddings. I've created I've transformed a boring

Ballroom into a castle courtyard that was had digital like a digital castle on the wall So if someone walked by the window in the castle the castle curtains would flutter Yeah, it was I've done some pretty amazing things and so I own this company like I said since 2006 I like loved it. Baby did built it up to the point where I was getting Just like like referrals for my past clients, which is like a huge compliment

Sophie (03:14)
Wow.

Jen Kinal (03:32)
to start getting the referrals. It means you need to work a little bit less on your marketing, your branding and your awareness of your company's coming out. And then obviously COVID hit and that completely changed everything and shut down everything. made my like, just everything was a disaster. Like I went from having a completely full wedding. I was actually so excited. I had an NHL wedding and I was like so excited to like do a hockey player's wedding. We're in Canada so the hockey is like life here.

Sophie (04:00)
Yeah, great.

Jen Kinal (04:01)
Um,

and so, so excited. And then, yeah, COVID hit, which meant that I basically had no business because we weren't allowed to get together. We weren't allowed to host events. I was like, okay, well, it's fine. It'll start back up again. We can just like pivot a couple of dates and keep moving forward. And I just had to constantly throughout that time, with making no additional money, constantly change everybody's wedding, change locations.

moved everything outside for my indoor venue. Some of them canceled and it just kept going and going and going. And I just remember thinking, my God, I am making no money. Like, thank goodness my husband has a very good job and is able to support us. But still, like when you're used to contributing, you're used to your finances are used to being contributed by two parties. It really was a hard hit for me because one, my identity was wrapped up in I was

successful event planner who planned amazing events and I was so busy. I was always so busy. Someone would ask me like, how are you doing? like, we're so good this year. We're so busy. have this many weddings booked and like my identity just disappeared. So not only did my finances disappear and my like pride in being able to contribute to our family, but my identity disappeared along with it and I didn't know what I was going to do and I started to realize that this is not coming back.

and I needed to make a change, make a pivot. But at that point, like I didn't know what to do. I luckily was part of a coaching program with a bunch of incredible women and a really, really good coach who was like, OK, we're going to pivot. Let's look at your skills. What are you really good at? And at that time, I had been a fashion influencer also on Instagram. So I really knew Instagram. I knew the insides and outs of

like building a social media campaign of creating, working collaborations with other companies, contracts, all that stuff that you need to know about social media. I had all that knowledge. I'd also built my business, the event planning business, by marketing on social media. So I had two sides of the social media coin. Like what does it feel like as a brand and how to develop your business and showcase your work. And I was also really playing with

video content and at that time nobody was. So instead of taking just posting photos I was doing walkthroughs of the venues and of the work that I had done so people could actually see what it felt like to be in the room versus just seeing that standard picture. And so we just decided like she was like well I think you should try this and I was like okay I could do that. So then I created like social media packages and then

put it out in the world and I got hired pretty quickly but the problem was when I was doing events I knew what my pricing was, knew what my packages were and if you asked me for a discount I was like nope I know what my value, I know my time and nope I won't do it. I just really was against it but when it came to social media I hadn't built that confidence muscle to believe in my packages, stand behind them. I charged way, way too low like

ridiculously low, which is probably why so many people said yes immediately because it took their social media off their plate and it ended up being just like beyond exhausted. I could barely keep up. I was working with so many clients and making like nothing. Like when I say I was working for pennies, I was legit working for pennies. So that same actually coaching program, we had a retreat that we went to and everyone's like, okay, I, okay, here's your hot seat. Let's explain what's going on in your business, what you need support with.

And I'm a little bit of an emotional person where I just like start bawling. Like I was like, working so much. I'm barely contributing to my family. I felt so horrible. I'm not getting paid what I'm worth and I don't know what to do. And everyone was just like, you know what? You need to increase your prices. And like I needed to increase my prices like by like 200%. No, like 400%. Like it was, I was so, I was charging so, so low in the hours I was making. But by this time I could see my

Sophie (08:01)
Yeah.

Jen Kinal (08:06)
confidence in what I was doing because I could see it working. I had built that muscle. like you just once you start a new business you have to build up that muscle to really be able to believe in yourself and stand behind yourself and so I kind of built that back up and I said you know what you're right I went to all my clients and I said hey just so you know we're gonna finish off this month but after this I'm gonna be increasing my prices to this and obviously like all of them were like we can't afford to anymore and they all left so I felt like that was like

At that point, was like, my God, I back down to nothing. Like I lost my event planning business at this point. I still couldn't even plan events, I don't think. And then I lost my next round of social media clients. And I was just like devastated because I was so proud of being able to contribute and being able to be like a supporter of my family and be successful in business. Right. And then I

decided, okay, that's it. Like, I'm gonna look at who's my dream clients, who do I wanna work with, what are the types of clients I wanna work with, and went and pitched them. And some of them that I had pitched, I'd already actually worked with as an influencer, so I knew their products, design, everything, like, by like the back of my hand, because when I was an influencer, I only worked with companies that I like loved, loved, loved. And so I pitched them and they said yes. So I had my first three clients like right away at my new pricing.

And that's kind of how like the major pivot happened to get me into the social media world as a boutique and an agency. But it went through a lot of a lot of pivots just to get there, like hard, hard pivots that I'm so thankful for now, but were ridiculously hard to go through.

Sophie (09:48)
Absolutely, think at the end of the day humans are... our biggest fear is change. So when we have to change something that we really believe in or something that we've worked so hard to get to, that change is so uncomfortable to actually work our way through it. Even though if we know it's the right thing for us or not, like it's still really uncomfortable to do.

Jen Kinal (09:54)
Mm-hmm.

Sophie (10:06)
and I completely relate to everything you're saying when your identity is tied to your job. I definitely felt like that. I was a fashion buyer for 11 years before I started my own business and I would always get people like, my god, you're like Rachel Green from Friends. You used to work for Ralph Lauren, you're a fashion buyer just like her. And my identity was literally like this fashion buyer. I was always compared to these people that were on the TV working in fashion and I was like, yeah, that's me too, cool. And then when I then left that, was like, whoa.

Who am I? What do I do? Like, where am I taking this? And I did exactly the same as you. I went back to my skillset and said, right, what are my transferable skills from this role that I had for 11 years? How can I move that into my business? And that is now actually how I teach.

people to build their online business because it's the easiest way to actually get started is to think about what have you already got in your toolbox basically, like what skills do you have, what do you enjoy doing because why would you build a business based around something that you're crap at and that you don't enjoy, like it doesn't make any sense to me. So I completely relate to everything that you said there and I think it's amazing that you were able to kind of just bounce back from all of the things that you had going on because I can imagine when you're in that situation and you really want to be able to provide.

and contribute to your family and stuff. You feel like you're in a sinking hole. It's just like, okay, how am I going to get out of this? I'm sure then you, yeah, you lower your prices because you think that's the way to do it. I definitely did that at the beginning as well. And I know if I'd have charged a lot more in the first two years in business, I would be a lot more better off now. So it's just like, but again, it's all just lessons.

So where are you at with that business today? Has that gone for any other evolution since you decided to take it down the social media route?

Jen Kinal (11:42)
So for a while I did the social media and then when we were able to start planning events I finished off the events that I had already been contracted to do we had to redo them and re-do them and everything to today's day or that date at the time and then I took on a few weddings but my social media agency took off so much to the point where I had to bring on a graphic designer and like I'm a graphic designer so for me to bring on someone to

could do something like iCode I was like I don't know if I should that was the best decision ever she's amazing and then I brought on an assistant and so my agency grew to the point where I had to pick one because I couldn't do both it was too exhausting and I promised myself that one I was going to build a business that had a reoccurring revenue which events did not right people get married once they get married all hopefully anyways get married mostly in the summer

corporate events, did a lot of Christmas parties, so that was at Christmas, so there would be very, very busy seasons and then absolutely dead seasons. And so I really wanted the reoccurring revenue, which the agency gave me because I just work with the same clients every single month and I always know what I'm making. So it gave me that security. It also gave me the ability to travel and work from anywhere, whereas events also don't, right? Like they're based in Edmonton in the summer. I was missing all my time with my kids in the summer when they're off.

and I was just working constantly. And then, yeah, I just really wanted to like build a business that gave me that security, gave me the ability to travel and also to be pandemic proof. I like never ever wanted to be shut down again. And so I built this agency business based on what I wanted. And at the time when I was choosing, I was like, you know, I'm for sure choosing the agency. It's giving me more joy. I get to be creative, which is something that is really important to me. And

It hits all my markers, but also I just love it. I love doing it. I love seeing the campaigns. don't want to toot my own horn, I'm really good at looking at someone's social media and being like, okay, let's look at what are your goals and let's map it out so we can visually see what your goals look like and how we can guide people through your funnels, through your launches. How can we do that? I loved that business so much more, so I just decided that's it.

I'm just going to the agency so I don't plan events anymore. I'll plan like my own events or if I have close friends I'll help them with their wedding or their corporate events or their conferences. But it's like a pick and choose now so yeah the agency is doing amazing. We've actually moved away from some of the people that I worked with in like the influencer world and I've really niched down into developers. So a lot of my clients are developers who are building condo buildings or homes.

And I don't know, I just love being able to like walk through their homes and then create video content and then take that video content and put it into their social media campaigns. Because that makes it so much easier for them because a lot of companies don't have the time to provide like video content for me, which performs better right now. So I don't know, I love that part of the agency. I really love working with the builders now. That's one of my like favorite things to do.

Sophie (15:01)
It makes sense because you've come from such a creative background with the event planning and doing everything like that. So moving into this and having houses is so closely linked to design anyway. So you moving into that as your niche makes perfect sense. And I really love that you've been able to transition and still.

Utilise the things that you love so much doing so much like bringing those events to life and being able to almost sell all the houses But you know you're you're you're doing the social media content for so it's very closely linked and I think another good example of like how you can use the skill set that you had in your first business career and then move that into whatever it is that you decide to go on to do next so I think that's really really cool to see that transition that pivot What kind of what did you have to put in place to go through those pivots obviously and you mentioned that you went through?

Jen Kinal (15:26)
Mm-hmm.

Sophie (15:46)
burnout and obviously you undercharged your work at the beginning, what did you have to put in place for that to then like actually rebuild itself and be sustainable for you? Did you have any systems or anything that you put in place for that?

Jen Kinal (15:58)
So I'm definitely one of those people who like push a lot on, have a lot of high expectations for myself. Recovering perfectionist is what you would probably call me, or at least trying to be recovering. It's definitely a constant challenge, but I push myself too hard sometimes and I find that like, I'm just like, it's fine, it's fine, just keep moving forward. And by about November last year is when I could really start to feel it.

I just was having trouble like waking up in the morning. I'd be so tired. I couldn't get up anymore. Like I used to get up and I'd work out in the morning before everyone got up and I just I didn't have the energy for that anymore. Sometimes I would like client like our house is a a bi-level. So when I go up the stairs, I by the time I get to the top, I'd be like, oh, I'm so tired. Like that's no way I'm in pretty good shape. Should I be like that? Or by one o'clock or two o'clock, my brain would just be like, OK, we're done checking out. I'm like, I still have work to do. Like I have.

something was really off with my energy. could just barely keep up with anything. And so we ended up going on vacation over Christmas and I always get reinvigorated at Christmas. So I like went on vacation, felt so much better or I always get reinvigorated on vacations anytime we travel. But I came back, I felt so much better. And then I just like immediately dropped right back into being exhausted and burnt out. And I was like, what is happening? Like,

I just had this great vacation where I got to just sit and relax and do nothing. And then I just dropped right back into burnout again. And so that's kind of when I realized, okay, this needs some changes. I need to adjust what I'm doing because what I'm doing is not working. And so I just decided, let's look at my business. Let's look at what's going on in my business. What's causing me the most stress. And at that time I had a community called the Bold Founders. So it was a bunch of women that would get together every month, either online or in person.

and I would find guest speakers and it was like such an incredible community and you could see these women growing and learning from each other, the bonds that were created. I loved it so much but I also put a lot of pressure and expectations on myself to make sure it was great every single time. And planning events is like my jam but also it's a lot of work to put them on, right? And so...

I had to decide, okay, what is important in my business and then what is something I can let go because I just can't keep going like this. I'm exhausted. And like I said, a lot of it was the pressure that I put on myself. And so I just said, that's it. I'm closing down the community. That was a really, really hard decision. I had a lot of phone calls with a lot of people being like, should I do this? I don't know. Like I've put so much effort into building this community and just decided like it's time.

I needed to let it go and as soon as I decided it was done and I didn't have to plan all these events and constantly chase like speakers and pricing budgets and all those things. It was like a weight lifted off my shoulders. I felt so much better, so much more relaxed. It didn't really end there. Like I was still definitely super burnt out and it's taking me, I feel like right now is when I'm starting to feel like my energy is coming back and I've been really careful about making sure that I don't.

add in more stuff that's going to burn me out. But also like adding in more systems into my business has been really, really helpful because one, it takes me out of having to be so hands on all the time, but also just allows me to like have that time to breathe so that I can relax and get myself back fully to where I was energy wise.

Sophie (19:30)
Yeah, I fully relate. I've had multiple burnouts and it does. It completely changes your whole way of being, the way that you show up every single day, the way that think you've got energy to do. And it takes a long... It's not just a... You're not just burnt out and then you recover. It's a long process. And I would say that I still now am dealing with the effects of having gone through so many of those burnouts and I haven't had a proper one for about two years at this point.

but I still can see it in my body, the way that my body reacts. Like I'm definitely also very hard on myself. And I don't think, I never used to think I was perfectionist, but you know what, recently I've realized I am actually a perfectionist and it holds me back in so many different ways. But yeah, I totally fill you with that. And it's really hard to let some of those things go and just letting go in general of anything that you've worked really hard to do. So that community that you built.

is a really difficult thing. And sometimes we just have to look at it and be like, is this serving me in this chapter of my life right now? Or can I put this on pause and come back to it later? can I, does this need to just go completely? Or should I be focusing my attention elsewhere? Or what can I do to change that to make it work better for me? But I think so often we get sucked into the fact of, I put so much energy and work into this thing. Like, how could I possibly give it up? And I did the same thing. Like the past two years, I've been building a second business. I built a mental health marketplace platform.

And I'm so proud of what we created. was me and a business partner, but neither of us had time and energy to put into this business and keep it going. about four or five months ago, we both said, look, we need to put this on pause until we've got energy. And it's not like we're never going to come back to this. I actually had a call with an accountant yesterday to see whether we were going to close down the business or not. actually, we decided to pause it. But that felt really good. It was literally like a weight off my shoulders because otherwise it was just...

Something that was distracting me from my actual purpose of the thing that I wanted to do and like the goals that I had and also like just I didn't have energy to give it so I wasn't giving it 100%. So I think it's a really brave decision to walk away from something that you know you're really passionate about, really love and I'm sure it was doing really well but it just wasn't serving you at that moment and that's not to say you can't bring it back at some point down the line but just right now it's not working for you and I think if it comes to a matter of your health and you're going through the burnouts and you don't have the energy to show up properly in your...

business that's actually making you the sole part of your income, that is a massive problem, right? So I think it was a really bold and brave decision that you made to kind of get rid of anything that wasn't serving you at that moment. And you mentioned that you then implemented some systems in your business to help you run that on a day to day basis. Could you share some a little bit about which systems you kind of implemented in your business? Do you mean like physical symptoms or systems? Or do you mean like kind of processes?

Jen Kinal (22:13)
So for me, I have this like constantly want to grow and get better and bigger. And that is part of like why I burned out so much because I'm constantly trying to do more. And I find when I do more, it's usually me that's doing it, right? So I'm the one who's involved in all the aspects. And of course that's not gonna go away. However, how we build our business with systems can make a big difference. So.

my big goal, like I said, is to grow, but how can I do that without having me be at the forefront? So instead of growing my social media agency, maybe it's not through the agency or maybe I have to bring on more people, but for me, I wanted to still continue to support my audience, my community, by creating and sharing my knowledge, but without having to be so hands-on all the time. So I've created things like...

I have something called the bold marketing calendar. So this is the system that I use for myself in like how I create content for my customers and for my clients. Like it's basically a breakdown. It's I use Trello all the time. Trello is like my best friend ever. And so I actually created this system within Trello that allows you to map out even using a calendar. Here's what your goals are. Here's what our like if we have any launches coming up, how can we map this out into the calendar? Now let's talk about what is our weekly content.

And so we plug all this into the calendar and it helps you to visualize what exactly is going on in your business and how you can market it, but have it all draw back into like your goals and your dreams, right? Like, so we don't want, I never want someone showing up on social media in a way that they're just showing up because they have to. Like if you're gonna post something, let's have it go somewhere. Let's have it either nurture our clients, maybe it directs them to an email list, or maybe it gives them a freebie, or we are.

educating them because we have a launch coming up. So we want to make sure that we're like really focusing our content on that launch product, even if it's not like directly linked just yet. We're just kind of nurturing that subject. So that's one of the systems that I use within my own business. And so I created this bold marketing calendar because I wanted other people to get that. Right? Like I know how exhausted and burnt out and tiring social media can be. And I

I as social media manager put my content always last. And so I know that when you're going to put it in as a business owner, you're like, it's so exhausting. So that's one of the systems I created for myself. And then also I'm like creating for other people. So it's an opportunity for me to still continue to grow my business, but in a different way that takes me a little bit more out of being so hands on. Like, yes, you're still going to have to talk about it when it comes to the marketing of that. But at least the product is like, here it is. This is my knowledge. This is what I teach.

but it's not draining me to host workshops and events and all these things constantly.

Sophie (24:59)
Yeah, it makes sense. You've just kind of simplified it a little bit for yourself basically and actually made it into this is the process, this is how we get someone from A to B and that makes perfect sense. you said you wanted to implement some of those systems so that you can step away and not have to be there and show up all the time.

Jen Kinal (25:03)
Hmm.

Sophie (25:19)
But so often we do get stuck in this like hustle mode and like just try and do more even though we know doing less is actually probably the solution and stepping away. Like I'm definitely guilty of that. How did you shift through that mindset? Like you've kind of mentioned that, you know, you are a self-proclaimed perfectionist and you do like to do as much as you possibly can do for your business, which makes perfect sense. How do you shift that mindset then like to actually be able to step back a little bit more and allow yourself to

Jen Kinal (25:23)
Hmm.

Sophie (25:46)
rely on systems, rely on other people to support you.

Jen Kinal (25:49)
I think it's because I was in such a rough spot before. It was really bad to the point where I just like, if you're not wanting to get out of bed because you're just so tired, I just wanted to sleep all the time. I was just so exhausted. And I don't want to go back there. I've done a really good job. I wake up and I drop the kids to school, but then I work out so I'm not getting up earlier before everyone else. So just getting some movement in there was key.

taking care of myself, I get B12 shots. Like all these things that I'm doing are really important to me and I'm very aware that I'm doing them to feel better and I don't want to do anything that is going to hinder that, right? So I think I'm very cautious about what I'm adding in now and ensuring that I'm constantly taking care of myself first. Like I'm putting my energy first over the need to grow and hustle and.

And so that's just kind of like, I think I'm just very nervous about falling back into old habits. So I'm just very aware of it. And so my mindset isn't so much that like, it's the sense that I need to take care of myself. That's in the forefront. Do things that make me feel good. Sometimes when it comes to working out, like sometimes I don't want to. I'm tired. I want to just lay on the couch and relax or lay in bed a little bit longer. But I also know that when I do that, I feel better. Like I get more energy from it. I feel good from it. I'm more positive.

and I work better also. So I think I'm just really aware right now of everything and just making sure that whatever I'm adding in is conscious of that so that I'm constantly taking care of myself. So I don't know that it's such a mindset in the sense that maybe I'm like just fearful of falling back to that, but also being really aware of what is making me feel better and bringing more of that in.

Sophie (27:34)
Yeah, I fully relate to that. Like again, same, I've been through the burnout. I don't want to go back there. I don't want to get back into that headspace. I don't want to be back in that energy. So I am, it just makes you more mindful, right? Like there is an element of fear to it because you're like, my God, I can't, I can't go back to that. And as soon as you start spotting little symptoms, you're like, no, no, no, stop, stop the clock. Let's, let's restart again. But it's, it's not easy. And like you just have to

Jen Kinal (27:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sophie (27:56)
keep really mindful and get really in tune with yourself and know how you feel when you're not in the burnout and know how you feel when you are in the burnout so that you can spot the signs along the way because obviously the symptoms of this is different for everybody but yeah I think it's just a case of like being really mindful about like how do you want to feel and how are you feeling right now and what needs to be done to get you feeling better basically so yeah I fully relate to that and there is definitely an element of fear like when you have been in a really

low energy dark place is scary and you're like I don't want I don't want to be there anymore like it does especially if you've got kids to show up for every single day like I'm sure that's even harder so it's definitely definitely part part it I think sometimes when you are shifting through that and working through the mindset and obviously to go through all of those things like you have to be very resilient to then come back and say okay yes that's happened

but I'm going to continue, I'm going to keep going. You've gone through some different pivots in your career as well. Obviously there's an element of trusting that everything will work out. In terms of the pivots, how did you feel like you were going through some challenging times, not making the money that you wanted to do? Did you feel in trust that everything was going to work out eventually? Or were there moments where you were like, scrap this, I can't do this, I'm going to go back to my job or whatever? How did you get work through that?

Jen Kinal (29:13)
There's definitely times where you're like, that's it, I'm done, I wanna get a job and then actually go on the look and then I'm like, no I don't.

Sophie (29:16)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I know I should have thought that.

Jen Kinal (29:21)
Yeah, I think that at the time the pivots and all those challenges were really, really hard, like hard. I remember when COVID happened and my whole business shut down. I remember just being strong. And then when everyone went to bed, I like went into my bathroom and just like bawled, like full out crying, snot, tears, everything. Because it's very difficult. Like I said, your identity is wrapped up in it. Everything you

you do, you've provided your success, everything is wrapped up in that. And then when it's gone, it's really hard to see the light. Looking back though, like at the time I was like, like, thank God I have amazing people around me to support me and help me guide through. Like my husband was amazing in support of my family, my friends, my coach. Like I had amazing people supporting me and it was really, really rough. But now looking back, like,

I can see every single thing I've ever done and how it guided me to where I am here. And as much as it's been hard, like there's been more pivots than that, of course, and that was the really like big devastating one, but all those pivots got me to this place that I'm at. And I'm so thankful for this place. I'm so thankful for my agency. I'm so thankful that I get to create my own hours, that I get to create my own freedom.

and I wouldn't change anything because all of those things made me stronger, but also really made me believe in myself. Like if I can get that my biggest fear was failure, it's not gonna work out. Well, I feel like I've done that. Like when you go from success to like rock bottom making zero money and can't even do your job, like you've hit it. You know that you're like, I came back from that. I can come back from anything you can throw.

pretty well anything at me and I'm like, I just know it'll work out or it's gonna guide me to someplace better, right? Like I didn't see this agency in my future. I didn't know that was gonna be a thing. And so sometimes the world just says, okay, you're not gonna move on your own, we're gonna guide you. And so I just feel like, you know what, if we've got something coming, let's see what it is and let's see where it's gonna bring me, because it's always been better. Even though it's hard, it's been better.

Sophie (31:37)
I agree, think it's just like, it's really hard to trust that in the moment because everything feels like it's crumbling on luncheon. But definitely, like I think once you've gone through, I hate to this, but like when you do go through failure, which everybody does, and if we can look at failure as lessons, we're never really failing, only failure is not trying. But like...

Jen Kinal (31:41)
Yeah.

Sophie (31:56)
When you do hit that place of like your deemed failure and you come back again and then you have another one and you have another one, I think the way you start to build the trust that everything's going to work out eventually is from going through that and seeing exactly what you said that it does come back around in a better way for you, whatever it's meant to be. So I fully back that. I think we are so scared of failure. Like again, it's another biggest fear of...

humans in general but what is failure really? Like in my opinion the only way you can fail is if you don't try to do something because then you'll never know if you could be a success or not but as long as we can reframe it to a lesson I think we're never really failing we can always learn it's the data that we're gathering actually if we're failing to say this is how we do it differently next time so I love that I think I think everybody needs to learn how to embrace failure rather than fear it.

because it can be really powerful mindset shift and allow us to trust that everything will work out in the end because it will, it always does. And whatever is releasing itself from you is probably not meant for you in that season of life. So I really like, I love that what you've shared there is really powerful around, yeah, just knowing that it's gonna get better kind of thing. And you mentioned obviously now your business allows you to go on.

Jen Kinal (32:46)
Mm-hmm.

Sophie (33:13)
travel, spend more time with your children, you've got a bit more freedom, what do you think is the key to entrepreneurs actually setting up a business that allows them to have that freedom? Because I have noticed over the past five years that I've had my business that so many people build businesses that actually trap them and make them feel like they're back in their nine to five job and don't fulfill them, don't allow them the freedom that they get. So what do you think you've done differently to allow you to actually have that freedom?

Jen Kinal (33:38)
I think that it depends on where you're at in life and the level of time you've been in your business and who's around you. So when I first started a business, I came from the corporate world and I believed you work nine to five, right? Like that's just what it is. You work nine to five. Yeah, if you're an entrepreneur, you get a little bit of flex space, but I expected myself to be in the office.

And that was my hours, my work hours. And I actually felt guilty if I didn't answer calls or respond to emails in a timely manner because I should be in the office. That is taking me a while to realize that that is not, as an entrepreneur, you get to create what you want. You get to design your life. You get to design your business. And it's been being around other entrepreneurs that I actually got to see what was possible. Right? Like I have a coach who takes summers off and I remember thinking,

Wait a minute, you can take summers off? how does that work? and I saying it now, I'm like, well, obviously, you can do whatever you want. But like, I didn't understand that at that point, I had the mindset that you work nine to five, just like corporate, you take your lunch hour, you don't like sneak away. Like I was, I was a workaholic in that sense. Like I worked all the time, I even worked in evenings and like, I worked all the time. And so seeing that it's possible, and how it's done.

has really opened my eyes into being able to take summers off or take Fridays off. Like I wanted to take Fridays off so I could go play pickleball. First, when you first do that, you're like, what if a client emails me and they want something done? Like, yeah, if I'm at my computer, I can go and get it done. But now that this is like a thing that I use to take Fridays off, I've changed my contracts to know that I work Monday through Thursday. I'm still gonna be available if I can do it on Friday.

but it's not like a thing anymore. I've also really gotten firm on my timelines. Like I had a client who would really push my boundaries and basically text me anytime she wanted. Like after dinner, so after like after the five o'clock closing time for my original hours, she would text me and be like, we need to post this, right? Or on weekends she'd like, I forgot to do this. Can you just put up a quick graphic and...

and write a caption for it, right? Like those are times that I should be off and not working with my family. So it's going through one, being able to see what's available, like this not working summers and taking Fridays off and finishing, like I finished the day typically around two, because that's when I go get the kids from school, right? These are things that we, once we see them, we're like, I could do that. But then also learning your boundaries is another way that we can start seeing freedom, what we want and what we don't want.

And I think now that I've started to see that these are options for me, I was like, okay, well, I don't want to work during the summer. Like I still work, but I don't work, I'm not in an office, right? Like I can work from home, I can work from the lake, I can work on vacation. And like I don't work on vacation, but I still bring my computer with me just in case a client needs me, which happened this year when I had like no surface.

Sophie (36:46)
typical.

Jen Kinal (36:47)
I think building that freedom in your business is just by seeing others and seeing how you can do it for yourself. And then also really looking at what do you want. Like travel is really important to me. So one, my business needs to have enough money coming in to afford me to travel. Like my goal is to travel at least five times a year. That's quite a bit, especially with my kids who are older now and I can't get them out of school as easily. But like that's part of my freedom is to be able to travel. I feel refreshed and-

invigorated when I get to go and travel and I come up with new ideas. And so I love travel. Another part of my freedom is, like I said, picking up and dropping off my kids. So we need to look at what in our lives is really important to us. Is it going and playing pickleball on Friday? If it is, well, how can we do that? Is there a way that we can just distribute the workload a little bit more during the week? Maybe we need to bring someone on. So I just think like.

We can create our freedom, we can create the ability to travel and work at the same time, we can create the ability to have more time with our family, to just take a day off to watch a movie in the tan in the backyard, like whatever you want. But we need to be able to see it for ourselves and we need to think about how we can do it. so I think freedom is a really huge thing when it comes to being an entrepreneur, because we do get the ability to create it. And I think that's an amazing thing.

Sophie (38:06)
It is an amazing thing and for me that was the whole point. I wanted the freedom, I wanted to not have to ask a boss for time off. I didn't want to be stuck with 20 days of holiday every year. I didn't want to ask or beg sometimes for pay rises or promotions. That's just not how I wanted to live my life. I wanted to be more in control of it and allow myself to have the freedom to do and be whoever I wanted to be whenever I wanted to be it. yeah, love that. That's normally my last question is what does freedom mean to you? But I feel like you've just kind of

a really good example of what freedom means to you. So I'm going to shift the question and say if someone is in a position where they either need to pivot or want to pivot and they feel really stuck in their current circumstance, whether they've already got a business or they're back in their nine to five and they want to shift into starting a business, it involves some kind of pivot, whatever age you are, what would your number one best bit of advice be for someone that wants to go through that pivot and create a little bit more freedom for themselves in their life?

Jen Kinal (39:01)
Okay, so my pivots were not rooted in safety at all. They were forced and so I personally like having things be safe. I like knowing what my income is. I like having that security. So depending on who you are as a person or I mean like I like to have the financial security and then I can kind of dabble in growing other areas. So it depends on who you are for me. Like I said, I need that security. So if you need that security then stay with your job.

and dabble a little bit, dip your toes in in the evening. And yeah, it's gonna take a little bit of like a year, a couple years, months maybe, but more likely years where you are doing both just to keep that security, but also grow that like, like I said, that confidence muscle, knowing your packages, knowing what you're offering. And then you can go ahead and say, okay, which one's gonna be more, is better for me? A lot of people say I'm gonna build a business and I will leave when my income matches my.

hurt like my job, right? So see what feels good for you, but don't be afraid to also just go and try things because if you don't try it and you just sit there and wait or you're dabbling but not fully putting your toe in like you need to put your toe in and be like, I'm doing this you need to jump right in and be like I'm doing this even if you're doing both at the same time for that security, but I say go for it like what's the worst that's gonna happen? Okay, so maybe it doesn't work.

But if you don't actually do it, then you're sitting there going, I should have done that. I should have done that a while ago. Think about the Instagram and TikTok worlds of marketing. People are like, I should have gone on Instagram so long ago. Or I should have gone on TikTok. I should have got into the reels before they went huge. And then I could have taken more advantage of them pushing reels, right? Because you were afraid to put yourself on video, you didn't put yourself out there. And then now you're going, I should have. Or I should have started that podcast sooner when podcasting was new.

you're always going to feel like you should have done something. So why not just do it? Like now is the perfect time to just do it. Otherwise you're going to wait and then later on in life, you're going to be like, I should have done it.

Sophie (41:01)
great advice. think we always wait, try and wait for the perfect moment, but the reality is there's no perfect moment. And yeah, sometimes we don't have to go and jump and leave all of our security. can try and manage both. If you want something badly enough, if you want to have a more free lifestyle and be able to start your own business and have your time back in your control, your finances and your location back in your control, you do have to take some measures to get to that, right? Like, so there might be some sacrifices in the sense that your evenings are sacrifices, your weekends are

sacrificed, for now it would be a time sacrifice but at least you've got that financial stability so what is different for everybody what their basic core needs are but yeah obviously finances are important so having some kind of like financial security is really helpful when you are building that so if you can keep a job even if you cut back on the time you're working on that job and then you invest more time into your business that's still going to give you that like healthy balance and then when you feel comfortable you can go all in but I think so many people get put off.

shifting out of their whatever it is that they're doing into something new because they think they have to do it all straight away and that's absolutely not the case. I'd actually not encourage that at all because it's just going to create so much more stress for you and you need some level of stability to build something. It's almost impossible to do it if you don't have either a financial or like home security or like whatever it is that you need to feel safe. It's almost impossible because your nervous system is never going to feel safe enough to allow you to go all in on the business anyway. So

I think that's amazing advice and I really appreciate you sharing your story and sharing the inspiration for people that do want to pivot their career, pivot their job, pivot their business, stage of life they're at. If anyone wants to connect with you further, how can they find you?

Jen Kinal (42:39)
Okay, so I'm always on Instagram, obviously. That's my favorite platform. It's at Jen Kinnell and then my website is [jenkinnell.com](http://jenkinnell.com/).

Sophie (42:47)
Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me today.